Author Topic: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas  (Read 760 times)

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Offline Cali Cat

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Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2018, 03:11:10 PM »
OK, I agree with that. I didn't think anyone would get more involved with the scenario but , you're right, that constitutes a choice. Now what if their mental illness contains the affliction of decision making ( I'm just throwing that out there for the sake of being argumentative ). I can see your point though, and everything in life is a choice and consequences are attached.

You make a great point, and I'm sure there are some instances where that's the case.
I don't have an answer for that.

One of the reasons I chose to get more involved in that scenario, other than a real issue with repeat criminals who claim "mental illness" whenever they get arrested, in hopes of getting off easy, is I know we have some very different perspectives on things, and you can discuss and debate like an adult (when you're not haunting refrigerators and directing ghosts to steal my bottle of Coke).  I figure I may learn something, or see something from a perspective I may not have otherwise.
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Offline Tom Ace

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2018, 03:22:14 PM »
If someone is a drug addict, it's not necessarily a choice anymore. 


I don't see it that way. I know your concentrating on the aftermath of an initial consumption but I focus on the initial consumption. The initial act IS a choice and the participation until hooked follows that line of decision. Once hooked, you're right, it's not a choice anymore FOR MOST. People do kick the habit ( and a lot of credit must be applied to them ) but they are still . In order to travel that progression of abuse to homeless, at some point, a choice was made. Mental illness is non negotiable, I agree.  Very rarely do I agree with what you say but this is pretty good.

Yes, starting to take drugs is a choice.  Sometimes, it's a choice made by someone fully in control of their reason.  I think a lot of times, it's at least somewhat understandable how they got started.  If they're at the point of being homeless because they're addicted, there's a strong chance they never envisioned getting to that point when they started.  I've made bad decisions, especially in my youth.  I've been lucky that none of them have severely hurt me.  Even with the initial act being a conscious choice, it's hard for me a lot of times not to empathize with drug addicts. 

Offline Tom Ace

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2018, 03:24:09 PM »
If someone has a diagnosed mental illness, has amedication for it, but chooses not to take it their medication, it's hard for me to feel particularly sympathetic toward them.  I hold they have made a conscious choice not to treat their illness, thus they're responsible for whatever stems from that choice.

I still think this is a little simplistic.  It may apply in some cases, but if they have a mental illness, that affects their thinking (of course).  It may not be possible for them to make rational decisions all the time.  A lot of mental illnesses have subtle effects. 

Offline Fish-on087

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2018, 03:39:45 PM »
You make a great point, and I'm sure there are some instances where that's the case.
I don't have an answer for that.

One of the reasons I chose to get more involved in that scenario, other than a real issue with repeat criminals who claim "mental illness" whenever they get arrested, in hopes of getting off easy, is I know we have some very different perspectives on things, and you can discuss and debate like an adult (when you're not haunting refrigerators and directing ghosts to steal my bottle of Coke).  I figure I may learn something, or see something from a perspective I may not have otherwise.

OHHHH I'm with ya on that. The use of the mental illness plan is despicable. Fortunately our legal system has caught up to these deceptive tricks. It is much harder now to retain positive results for these criminals, often they are in worse shape for using that defense but I totally agree with your point. I also see you have good reason for your stance. You really didn't have to involve yourself with my foolish retort but I can see the strong urge you had could not leave it, thanks. I hope you somewhat feel relieved for expressing such strong convictions. ( I do know why you feel that way, I can put 2 and 2 together . There is no need to stretch it any further )

Mental Illness is a complex argument and to say anything with it is generic by nature is false.
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Online Misterfamous

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2018, 03:57:49 PM »
Yes, starting to take drugs is a choice.  Sometimes, it's a choice made by someone fully in control of their reason.  I think a lot of times, it's at least somewhat understandable how they got started.  If they're at the point of being homeless because they're addicted, there's a strong chance they never envisioned getting to that point when they started.  I've made bad decisions, especially in my youth.  I've been lucky that none of them have severely hurt me.  Even with the initial act being a conscious choice, it's hard for me a lot of times not to empathize with drug addicts. 
Empathize is one thing.  Offering them a helping hand is also good.  But how much community resources should be devoted to people who put themselves in such a situation continually ?  Cocaine and heroin are these awfully addictive drugs I hear, yet it's not as though healthy and intelligent people are being consumed by taking them.  Crawling out of addiction isn't meant to be easy, and the people fighting such battles have to take the lead in their own treatment.  The government can only help so much.

Mental illness is a quite different story.  Such people were often born that way and have no freedom to choose good decisions over bad.  Even a small percentage of them being violent and a drag on resources is enough to disrupt society.  Most of them just suffer unnoticed.  But such people have the capability of being productive and were never guilty of anything to start with.  Whereas once there were state hospitals to collect and provide at least bare-bones treatment for such people, they were underfunded and mismanaged.  Concerns about inhumane treatment caused overkill and nearly 100% of such facilities were shut down completely, contributing to the exploding homeless problem.  The United States abandoned its mentally ill population and today shitholes like California dare to call themselves progressive and caring, while these people wander the streets aimlessly.
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Offline Tom Ace

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2018, 08:04:05 AM »
Empathize is one thing.  Offering them a helping hand is also good.  But how much community resources should be devoted to people who put themselves in such a situation continually ?  Cocaine and heroin are these awfully addictive drugs I hear, yet it's not as though healthy and intelligent people are being consumed by taking them.  Crawling out of addiction isn't meant to be easy, and the people fighting such battles have to take the lead in their own treatment.  The government can only help so much.

It's a tough problem, for sure.  I'm not suggesting specifics for how to help them.  I'm just saying mostly what you are here, that I think some empathy and assistance is appropriate.

Offline wild-turkey

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2018, 08:42:03 AM »
It's a tough problem, for sure.  I'm not suggesting specifics for how to help them.  I'm just saying mostly what you are here, that I think some empathy and assistance is appropriate.
Assistance is there in every community pretty much in the country but there is no magic solution.  It’s a brutal game of statistics and the odds are not favorable for many so the best you can do is help those that can be helped and that means many have no hope.

This is why the legalization of drugs is such a horrific idea and that includes weed.  The best treatment is not to start and certainly not to train people to chase the high.

Offline Tom Ace

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2018, 09:20:19 AM »
This is why the legalization of drugs is such a horrific idea and that includes weed.  The best treatment is not to start and certainly not to train people to chase the high.

Because keeping them illegal is doing such a great job of keeping people from starting?  Legalizing them doesn't mean we're saying people should do them.  Tobacco products are legal, and the concerted effort to make people aware of just how bad they are has worked well, with smokers declining drastically in the past 25 years.  Most people choose not to do drugs because of how bad they can be for you.  I know that's why I choose not to.  If drugs were legal, I wouldn't suddenly go do coke or heroin (or even weed, personally).  Same for the majority.  They're not sitting there thinking "If only heroin was legal...". 

As for weed, it's less harmful than both of the aforementioned legal drugs.  Even if you are for keeping hard drugs illegal, there's no good reason for weed to be so.

Offline Fish-on087

Re: Smart People Don't Want To Live In Liberal Areas
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2018, 10:36:23 AM »
Because keeping them illegal is doing such a great job of keeping people from starting?  Legalizing them doesn't mean we're saying people should do them.  Tobacco products are legal, and the concerted effort to make people aware of just how bad they are has worked well, with smokers declining drastically in the past 25 years.  Most people choose not to do drugs because of how bad they can be for you.  I know that's why I choose not to.  If drugs were legal, I wouldn't suddenly go do coke or heroin (or even weed, personally).  Same for the majority.  They're not sitting there thinking "If only heroin was legal...". 

As for weed, it's less harmful than both of the aforementioned legal drugs.  Even if you are for keeping hard drugs illegal, there's no good reason for weed to be so.

Both Heroin and cocaine were legal drugs before WW2, bought and sold from a SEARS catalog. They didn't keep an accurate statistic on dependency but most people used these drugs for medicinal purposes. That was the drugs intentional use. Hollywood glamorized the availability and the sensation. The poor couldn't afford them so, they didn't do them for recreation. I'm sure if  statistics were as critical, they would have kept them but the use of these drugs was non concerning because the public wasn't ( in the feds eyes ) abusing them , there was no epidemic, there was no drug trafficking ( at such a high level there is now ). So if you legalize them now, like TOM said, maybe a good portion of the population won't really be affected by it. The drug dealers will ( that may be a good thing ) but legalization ( with laws in place ) will help keep a register of recipients and it may just cut down the percentages of deaths.
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