Author Topic: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?  (Read 203 times)

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Offline Realityball

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #75 on: October 16, 2018, 06:41:39 AM »



y’all should read “1491” by Mann(?) ...


The America’s before Columbus may have been some of the most advanced (at the time) environment management ... South America with its vast agriculture that may have included the entire Amazon basin compared with the North American Indians and their game management by controlling the entire landscape with burning and culling ...


there’s recent evidence of a bison population explosion as a result of the devastating diseases to the western tribes ... in other words, the great numbers of buffalo weren’t a natural thang ...


meanwhile, the agricultural-reliant groups in South America where able to blow up their populations to the point of catastrophic collapse ... hundreds of years before the Spaniards ...




interesting stuff ...



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Offline Red Hessian

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #76 on: October 16, 2018, 09:00:04 AM »
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Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #77 on: October 16, 2018, 11:53:02 AM »
Farming introduced a lot more than farmed food to humankind.

* vast population explosion


* commerce/wealth/war

* permanent towns/societal classes


* communicable diseases

* specialization of jobs (including writing, reading, keeping the books, etc.)



(mostly from Jarred Diamond: Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies, (1997), W.W. Norton)
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Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #78 on: October 16, 2018, 11:58:38 AM »
Agriculture ended libertarianism for once and for all.
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Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #79 on: October 16, 2018, 12:05:03 PM »
A raging controversy about H-G-ers is whether they lived in "communes," or had nuclear families as is common today.


Unfortunately for anthropologists, the "Stone Age" was actually a wooden age. The H-G-ers left almost nothing behind, which might weather the ages. They "owned" very few "artifacts," being always on the move.
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Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #80 on: October 16, 2018, 12:13:49 PM »


y’all should read “1491” by Mann(?) ...


The America’s before Columbus may have been some of the most advanced (at the time) environment management ... South America with its vast agriculture that may have included the entire Amazon basin compared with the North American Indians and their game management by controlling the entire landscape with burning and culling ...


there’s recent evidence of a bison population explosion as a result of the devastating diseases to the western tribes ... in other words, the great numbers of buffalo weren’t a natural thang ...


meanwhile, the agricultural-reliant groups in South America where able to blow up their populations to the point of catastrophic collapse ... hundreds of years before the Spaniards ...




interesting stuff ...


Some recent findings:


Quote
Hidden Kingdoms of the Ancient Maya Revealed in a 3-D Laser MapUsing technology known as lidar, a team of archaeologists found evidence beneath the jungle canopy in Guatemala of how the Mesoamerican civilization altered its landscape.


The discoveries, published Thursday in Science, provide a snapshot of how the ancient Maya altered the landscape around them for more than 2,500 years from about 1000 B.C. to 1500 A.D., and may change what archaeologists thought they knew about aspects of the ancient society’s population size, agricultural practices and conflicts between warring dynasties.
The ancient Maya flourished in what is today southern Mexico, Guatemala, Belize and western Honduras. They left behind a rich written history painted and inscribed on wood, stone and ceramics. Detailed in their intricate hieroglyphics were tales of kings, queens and war.




https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/27/science/maya-ruins-lidar.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Science


- and -


https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/09/27/this-major-discovery-upends-long-held-theories-about-maya-civilization/?utm_term=.96512f8dc36b












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Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #81 on: October 16, 2018, 12:28:48 PM »
Agriculture ended libertarianism for once and for all.

"free range humans"
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

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Offline NFL-Solomon

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #82 on: October 16, 2018, 12:30:28 PM »
"free range humans"
Damn it kbur, I wanted to see how long he was going to talk to himself.
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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #83 on: October 16, 2018, 12:35:15 PM »
Damn it kbur, I wanted to see how long he was going to talk to himself.

I couldn't resist that shot at libertarianism.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #84 on: October 16, 2018, 12:51:28 PM »
The advent of farming allowed for the acquisition of personal wealth, and the specialization of labor, ultimately including scholarship: The rich vied to "keep" the smartest scholar as their prized trophy.



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Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2018, 12:52:40 PM »
I couldn't resist that shot at libertarianism.

You're compelled to apologize to Lardo?
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Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2018, 12:58:06 PM »
You're compelled to apologize to Lardo?


Explanations are not apologies.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2018, 12:59:17 PM »
Explanations are not apologies.

You're compelled to explain yourself to Lardo?
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Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2018, 12:59:57 PM »
The advent of farming allowed for the acquisition of personal wealth, and the specialization of labor, ultimately including scholarship: The rich vied to "keep" the smartest scholar as their prized trophy.





Specialization results in truck drivers that can't read and doctors that can't change a light switch.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2018, 01:01:42 PM »
You're compelled to explain yourself to Lardo?


Compulsion is a tricky addiction.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2018, 01:07:48 PM »
Specialization results in truck drivers that can't read and doctors that can't change a light switch.


...and scientists that blow religions out of the water, and artists, musicians, dancers, fine chefs...civilization...

I doubt whether H-G-ers achieved "imagined reality," although there is some evidence for burial rituals, which may indicate some kind of religiosity, or not.
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Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2018, 01:11:42 PM »

...and scientists that blow religions out of the water, and artists, musicians, dancers, fine chefs...civilization...

I doubt whether H-G-ers achieved "imagined reality," although there is some evidence for burial rituals, which may indicate some kind of religiosity, or not.


Add to that the totems that have been found.  Cave paintings also show a development of art and leisure.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Offline NuminousGuy

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2018, 01:32:16 PM »
Add to that the totems that have been found.  Cave paintings also show a development of art and leisure.


There is an excellent series of novels written by Jean M. Auel, dramatizing early (cave man) societies: the 1st is Clan of the Cave Bear.

highly recommended
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Online kburjr

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2018, 01:45:26 PM »

There is an excellent series of novels written by Jean M. Auel, dramatizing early (cave man) societies: the 1st is Clan of the Cave Bear.

highly recommended


Own and have read the entire series a couple of times.  Added: Darryl Hannah looked great in skins.
"Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don't exist simply because I am outnumbered."

-  E. Lee Wrights

 “Keep a goverment poor and weak and it's your servant; when it is rich and powerful it becomes your master.”
―H. Beam Piper


“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. – H.L. Mencken

Offline Mannyrules3

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Re: A better life: hunting-gathering or farming?
« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »
Damn it kbur, I wanted to see how long he was going to talk to himself.

It really is the best reading on AFR.